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Have you ever seen a cat play with a small animal? Ever seen a bird being gutted by a hawk while it was still alive?
Nature is far more cruel than this. Get over it there are bigger battles to fight.
Actually bob, there life ends quickly in the wild, but the thing is, we aren't a bird or a cat, we are human people capable of compassion..
However, the thing that plays through my mind, everyone want cheap everything, this is the unfortunate side effects of gluttony.
I'm not a vegetarian and I never will be, I've no concerns about killing an animal for food, but all my foods are sourced from a lot more kind places.
Way to miss the point, Bob.
I'm not quite sure I follow the comment above, which seems to be suggesting that humans should be as cruel as they please because nature is sometimes cruel. I shudder to think where that leaves the human concept of morality.
In any case, it seems perfectly clear to me that a great deal of suffering can be eliminated if more people bought ethically produced food. I get my eggs from my farmer's market and they're quite affordable. A few times a year I get a chicken or turkey, though my diet is mostly vegetarian on a day-to-day basis. More people could do this.
If the good Lord didn't want baby chicks to die in a giant industrial mangling machine, he wouldn't have made them so tasty!
Get over it. That's where food comes from. If dainty urban liberals are wetting their lace panties over this, maybe they need to get out of their bubble. The real world ain't going to change to suit their phobias.
What a horrible and unnecessary practice, and a waste. They could caponize (neuter) all of those chicks.
I know there are a lot of folks here who are vegetarians, but for those of use who still eat meat, capons (neutered male chickens) actually produce very good meat.
I'm proud to say as a vegetarian who eats eggs - but only free range from farmers I know - I am not contributing to this revolting casual cruelty.
Bob - they could have taken the same attitude to people in the camps in WW11 - there are always bigger battles; but my guess is you're not fighting them.
So better to STFU and let people who are prepared to do something take the lead...
Maybe, publishing the names of the companies that produce the equipment or the names of the designers of such equipment so that their other products can be boycotted would be a good start.
Not to nitpick, but why do you you think that MFA would suggest putting a warning label on eggs? I don't see how the senseless death of male chicks potentially pose a health risk to consuming the eggs?
I think the statement should be there without the warning: the calm statement that thousands of male chicks were slaughtered to bring you the eggs. That in itself is a powerful message that doesn't confuse possible risks to one's health (which is what warning labels on products are there for) with the ethical treatment of animals (which normally doesn't warrant a warning label).
I've moonlighted with vegetarianism for years now. I'm not a vegetarian anymore but I try to avoid eggs from factories, and buy things local when I can. Which is harder in a city but we have two farmers markets here, no industry involved.
this is extremely disturbing, how one can treat a live animal something like a goods.
@bob => i do not agree with your comment, as you said about cat and animal...this is natural and this is part of their food chain. But in this video what ever is being done is not a part of nature's food chain but it is interference of human.
There must be some rules and regulation on such industries, after all chick are also have lives and one should not treat them like this.
I'm gonna have to agree with both Ben and Bob here. Yes, nature can be far more cruel in the ways food stuffs are dispatched. However, that doesn't make it ok for US (the human race) to take part. We are capable of respect and compassion for all living things. If we can't show compassion to small chicks, how can we possibly show compassion to each other?
Mike, I might have to reverse that:
If we can't have compassion for each other, how can we possibly have compassion for these chicks?
I'm all for animal rights and I hate to see things like this, but Bob is right, there are much more important battles to fight when there is human cruelty in the world. I care for my fellow man more than I care for a chicken.
i hatched my own chicks and i never have to buy eggs again. :) and my chickens can actually walk and enjoy their life in my yard
Well, that's all the more reason for me to buy my eggs from Harvey and Helen at the farmer's market.
Are there 100billion cats playing with 100billion small animals? So Bob doesn't have a problem with animal cruelty, well done Bob that speaks volumes.
I am not a vegetarian, I don't think nature means us to be, but often times when we want to go out to eat I have to be because I will not eat something that has been tortured.
At home we raise our own chickens, and although the life of a male tends to be shorter it is a life led happily, naturally free range. Our hens have the best of life chasing bugs and they repay us with the most tasty, healthy eggs.
There is simply no excuse for torturing other creatures, no matter the reason. Cruelty should not be accepted.
All of you who eat meat and poultry sourced from anywhere other than free range and organic sources perpetuate and encourage these practices to continue.
The real question in the end, is are the eggs/meat produced from these chickens still worth while eating? Protein from meat is a must have for humans for health, but if the animal is grown wrong, the meat is worthless. The whole issue is healthy food vs... profitable food. One may be able to have both, but where is the focus, this looks like profit first.... health? who cares?
This is why it's so important to know where your food comes from. If you buy local you can visit the farms where you buy your food from and know first hand that they are treated compassionately and with respect. The most local you can get is growing your own! Keeping chickens is rewarding in many ways. There are lots of resources out there for guidance. Then you know exactly where you food is coming from!
As an owner of four hens I am responsible for at least four male chicks' deaths, for every broiler I consume one male chick dies, and for every 300 eggs you buy a male chick dies. I have heard that "chicken flavor" is made from the ground up male chicks and I am sure that a lot of it ends up in dog food as well. Can't they at least electrocute them before grinding them?
Meat is Murder. Tasty, tasty murder.
Agreed with Ben, nature can be cruel, but we are capable of compassion, especially when suffering is so very unnecessary.
The Grinding is actually the most humane way, it's very quick. The places that don't use that method do it more for the employees, because it's so traumitizing to the humans feeding them in.
Do a quick youtube search for Jamie Oliver and chicks, he did a "Where your food comes from" special on this, and started the show by killing about 50 chicks with carbon monoxide. He pointed out that this is standard practive all over the world. It's not a secret, but not discussed.
It is hard to take any one who claims to be an environmentalist seriously if they're eating factory farmed meat and dairy.
How many reasons do people need to do something so simple?
Until the human race gets past the "all about me and my immediate gratification" mindset, any thing else we do will be too little and too late.
"What can be done to deliver food with respect for the animals that give their lives to be part of our food chain?"
Raise the animals yourself, or don't eat them. Alternatively, pay a premium for animals products from considerate companies. Simple.
You may also do well to simply think about what you're eating before you eat it.
Why are you even discussing wether or not it is moral? It is obviously horrendous. How about we try to come up with ideas and ways to use the male chicks! Like letting them roam on farm land that's been over farmed or shipping them off to poorer countries. One man's pile of dead chicks is another man's soil regenerator and a way to feed his family HUMANELY.
Part of the problem is a lot of "Local Farmers" buy their chicks from these plants. Even if they have hatched eggs on their farms the original chicks are coming from the major suppliers.
I flipped on How Stuff is Made one day and they were covering just this sort of thing. I was so disturbed by the chicks careening down conveyor belts and off conveyor ladders that I haven't had the guts to watch that show since.
Actually I saw this first thing this morning. And I truly feel that they could be handled a lot more humanely. The way the poor things are handled is beyond cruel.
What snapped me back to reality was at the end, the comment to become a vegetarian...OMG! Are you SERIOUS? Did you stop and think just what all is made up with eggs?
K- so, don't eat bread, don't eat cookies, pastries or any other countless things that you haven't really stopped and thought about for Pete's sake. Sorry dude, everyone is a carnivore one way or another. And Vegies? shoot, they are alive too, you are killing plants to eat. You have to kill something to eat, One way or another.
If you have men who will exclude any of God's creatures from the shelter of compassion and pity, you will have men who will deal likewise with their fellow men. ~St. Francis of Assisi
What are the bigger battles worth fighting for?
I think people confuse themselves when they try to compare and rationalize their actions with what they see around them in the wild. Other animals are forced to have sex with one another, I guess it's okay to rape women?
Other animals kill the young of other males of the species. I guess it's okay to kill my neighbors kids?
It's unfortunate that so many people lack of compassion and lack some basic reasoning skills.
Its seems that if there was a market for the male chicks then the factorys would certainly take advantage, but there isn't. In any civilized society it always comes down to money, its the foundation for all commerce. We can say yes its horrible but business has never been for humanity, its for profit. thats what charity is for, just look at EVERY corporate misson statement, "increase stock holders profit" it numeral uno. And until we see people over profit instead of profit over people you'll never see humane practicies....
lochaine, let me guess, you're an omni. You act like life without eggs is not possible or worth living. Plenty of vegans have done it. Anyone interested in food and where their food comes from shouldn't be surprised by this video.
And FYI bread is water, flour, yeast, and salt. Maybe you've never made bread before so you assume all bread has eggs. There are also all kinds of leaveners and binders used for quick breads and cakes that don't require using eggs or animal products. It's called vegan baking and you probably wouldn't know the difference.
If that's not for you, then that's not for you but the options are out there.
I don't really see a problem here myself. This is how you feed thousands of people in a modern society. Although a bit shocking for most, I don't see how this grinder is any worse that the way I used to slaughter my own chickens when I was spending summers on farms as a child. It isn't any more cruel than sticking their head under an old bent nail and chopping off their heads with a hatchet.
All chickens on farms, with very few exceptions, are going to die at a farmers hand at some point. Whether you snap their necks in your hand, chop them with a hatchet, suffocate them with CO2, or end it quickly in a high-rpm grinder makes very little difference... they all are going to die.
In terms or food output and profit females are worth far more than males. It is a logical busniess decision to not waste resources on the males and to get rid of them. However places like TH often see logic blockaded by emotional uprisings and lifestyle ramrodding.
Oh well, this is nothing I will ever lose sleep over.
-Lego
Just a question- what do the "good" egg farmers do with unwanted baby chicks? It is my understanding that the "laying" breeds don't make good meat birds, so if you are buying female chicks to raise for eggs, you are probably still buying from a place that kills its male chicks, since there is no market for male layers.
It would be fun to put Bob and his brave anonymous friend on a conveyor belt to be ground up alive. There I said it, I value a chick's life over theirs. Jesus loves you!
Grinding up live chicks is standard procedure and the practice is widespread. The spokesman for the company just whines that there is no commercial use (profit-making use) for the male chicks. All that matters to them is the bottom line and how much money can be made. He also tries to discredit the group (Mercy for Animals) that did the work to expose this atrocity by saying they are a group that wants all egg consumption to cease. Well, If you have to grind baby chicks alive in order to eat eggs -- then maybe no one should eat eggs! Hello!!!! The things people will do for money!
I was an eggetarian until about an year ago, when I watched one such video and gave up eggs. Now when I'm tempted to enjoy an omlette, I'll remember this video of yours...
Proves my point that American business enjoys cruelty, whether to animals or to humans.
Several points here--if these chicks end up in chicken feed, they may introduce prions similar to those which cause mad cow disease, Creutzfeld-Jakob syndrome, or kuru. Chicken already is unsafe due to the levels of female hormones which contribute to premature menstruation and fertility, especially in poorer families where chicken is the only affordable meat.
If they go into chicken bouillon or flavoring, salmonella and other diseases from lack of cleanliness could be problems.
I was always under the impression that male chicks were raised for fryers and broilers--not an attractive idea, either, but some of us don't thrive on a totally vegan diet (though I wish I did--it's certainly cheaper!)
another reason to keep your own chickens and feed them with veggie scraps and lawn clippings
This insanity is actually not necessary to feed our society. We raise birds who will never stretch their wings or walk in the sun so that we can eat them or steal their eggs, and we hatch some chicks so we can put them in cages and turn them into the egg machines that need to be replaced at the ends of their short, miserable lives. Personally, the males who endure those final moments of terror are probably the lucky ones. But we don't need to eat eggs any more than we need to drink milk or eat meat (all of which are produced using grains grown in fields that could grow food for humans and far too much water while water is in shortage in our own country and around the world).
The reason that we have such large and immoral companies in the AG business is a result of government action. Between Roosevelt's AAA, the current Farm Bill, the punitive estate taxes, and the up and coming Food Safety and Modernization Act, small farmers have been forced out of farming, and our tax payers have subsidized the big guys.
The solution is to buy local and fight legislation that give subsidies or imposes burdensome regulations. Both of those SEEM like they would help, but because of corruption in congress and the nature of these anti-free market moves, the big companies can afford to do the workarounds and the small farmers throw their hands up in frustration and go broke trying to keep up.
Study how many of Roosevelt's activities caused a shift from rural to urban and you will start to understand many of the problems we have now.
It doesn't matter if you eat free-range or regular eggs--all egg producers get their hens from hatcheries and all hatcheries kill the male chicks. The only solution is to not eat eggs. It isn't that hard. There are a ton of vegan recipes on VegCooking.com.
We buy eggs from a coworker who raises chickens. The male chicks are kept to be pets, from what I understand (the coworker is a school teacher & has children) but really for most that's not so much an option. But since we do have the option of buying from someone who can avoid such a practice, we do. I still think that the above video is awful, and even though eating any eggs is going to result in the death of male chickens, buying locally where things are done less heartlessly still has merit.
I can only hope I die as fast as that grinder kills.
I don't want to live forever with the aches and pains of life continuing to get worse. I don't want to spend years bedridden by old age. I don't want to go through kemo for cancer and die slowly.
Now, the ones who went through the cleaning water, should be immediately tossed into the grinder. Fast mercy killing.
I only wish there was a convenient and cost effective way to use these males for meat. This breed is not a good meet chicken. They are only good for laying eggs.
As for just letting the males live, they will eat a lot of expensive grain and fight together if there are too many. Is the fighting painful? Yes. I have some roosters with 6 inch spurs. Those puppies hurt me. I can only imagine what happens when they are in a fight.
Just like in hunting. Kill them quick.
Can the bodies be used for fertilizer?
The terms "free range" and "organic" don't mean jack shit when applied to animal products. I used to believe in those marketing terms... to allow myself to feel better about consuming eggs and cheese. But when I finally woke up and realized that I was still contributing to animal cruelty and death, which is counter to all my core beliefs, I became vegan, happily and easily. Best decision of my life.
Most commercial farmers, organic, free range or otherwise, get their chicks from these same hatcheries. They've still got blood on their hands, and animals in cages. Let's get real. If you love animals, and don't want them hurt, don't eat them or their products. It's quite easy: live simply, so others may simply live.
Bob's right. Why do you think we domesticated cats in the first place? They're good at protecting crops by killing small animals. How many rats, mice and bugs die to protect the crops you vegans eat? It's a lot but I guess that doesn't matter because they're not cute. All y'all hypocrites.
Just a thought for any of you self-righteously claiming to be immune to this because you buy meat/eggs from a farmers market or "organic" source....
How do you know this isn't going on in the organic industry too?
The standards for labeling chickens as organic are pretty lax. Hell, "free-range" really doesn't mean anything at all... a farmer can keep the hens inside and have a semi-working door connected to a miniscule yard, and that's classified free-range because the hens have "access" to the outside. Howcome there's no male chicken in the organic meat section at the market? Hmm... wonder how they kill male baby chicks on organic farms?
Organic/free range is really not the answer here. Organic agriculture is an industry just like any other, with similar "problems" (male chicks) to the rest of the industry. Organic agri-business is becoming increasingly dominated by big players (erathbound farms et al.). Where do you think Mom & Pop on the organic local farm get their organic chicks from? Why do you magically assume that this problem, does not exist in the organic side of agri-business? Wake up please!
One of many upsides to living in a third world country: A two minute walk gets you to a farmer's market. While the chickens aren't treated as well as they could be, the butchers do take special care. The fact that it's an islamic country also means that the animals cannot die brutal deaths or watch eachother die or the meat isn't considered halal(acceptable).
Being a vegetarian myself, I have no problem getting organic eggs. The larger stores also stock them.
I know that a very large number of people buy chicks as pets here. The farmers might give them away to to the under privileged that sell them at low rates. And although this is a separate issue, these chicks are sometimes dyed flourescent colours to make them more appealing for children. I'm not sure how bad this really is for the animals, but it's a completely unnecessary practice.
Become a loved, flourescent household pet, however, does beat being ground up alive.
I read each and every entry on this topic so far. It is very interesting to see all the different views. I do eat meat however I find it harder and harder to do with information like this. I sit and think about how humans will merely except the way things are with the fact that this is what it takes to provide for so many. When are the lines drawn? What if as a human race we continue to out grow our eviromnental resources.....what we just start knocking off humans to make room for others. Sounds crazy right?..... But whats the difference? When did man start being so self centered and uncaring? I am not perfect but have started on the road to finding healthy and humane alternatives to provide me the essentials for living. Do we just chalk it up to thats what it takes like a bunch of barbarians or do we step back and regroup with better options. We think we're so high and mighty and the sad thing is that we take simple things for granted and feel everyone and/or everything owes us something. We need to pull our head out of our a@@es and get a grip.
Interesting comments by Bob and his supporters. A favorite uncle of mine used to say, "just because I'm ignorant, don't think I'm stupid".
I think you are all missing the point.
You are killing an animal to feed on its meat.
Does it matter if it suffered or lead a happy life? What´s the difference? Why is it OK to kill, as long as it´s done the "nice" way?
Humans do not need animal protein or animal products. Just as we didn´t need slaves a hundred years ago, even though it was OK, legal, and encouraged. Meat is also OK, legal, and encouraged, does it mean it´s good?
It´s an artificially instituted practice. It is hard to change a paradigm, but not impossible.
http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/
For those who say "there are bigger/more important battles to fight" I have to point out, they're all the same battle, just different applications/scope.
Disregard of ANY suffering, human or not, is yes, natural... but not HUMANE... The intelligence to have *Compassion* is ALL that can distinguish a person, from a tornado, a tsunami, an erruption, a destructive force.
If you want to be part of the destructive strain of the human species, then you indeed deserve no compassion in return.
But those who see the human potential, have always strived for better. For compassion. In ALL areas.
Ask Jesus, Buddah, Mother Theresa, All the "Christian" saints, Dali Lama, Martin Luthor King, Gahndi, etc. etc....
For you, baby chicks don't register as worthy of caring about their suffering.
For others
- a despised cultural neighbor is deemed worthless enough to cause suffering to... Jews, Rawandans...
- low-income families health and suffering aren't worth caring about..
- Women's suffering isn't worth caring about/fighting against...
- The elderly's suffering isn't worth caring about/alleviating ...
- Refugee's suffering isn't worth caring about/mitigating...
What happens when you suddenly are in the group that is considered valueless enough to let suffer, to cause suffering to through disregard, maltreatment, or malice?
Now I'm wondering how you neuter a chick.
If the good Lord didn't want baby chicks to die in a giant industrial mangling machine, he wouldn't have made them so tasty!
You - are an idiot !!!!
Everybody who eats meat needs to accept that their choices cause innumerable deaths, and chick grinding is as humane as any other method of slaughter. Think of desperate fish caught
in a net and then suffocating in a massive pile in the fishing boat's hold. Do you think that cows, pigs and chickens just don't wake up one morning? The shocking aspect is not the video, it is that so many people failed to imagine how their meat is "produced".
Gary Paudler
Thank you very much for showing this clip. I predict in just afew years things will be looking much better for all farmed animals with information like this coming out.
All that I have witnessed of Factory Farmers are that they are liars, totally business driven and have no regard for humans or the animals they confine.
This is not a liberal issue or people telling other people how to live their life. Treating any life like this is morally wrong.
We do not want humans that are not thinking. Isn't that afterall what makes us human?!?
Everybody who eats meat needs to accept that their choices cause innumerable deaths, and chick grinding is as humane as any other method of slaughter. Think of desperate fish caught
in a net and then suffocating in a massive pile in the fishing boat's hold. Do you think that cows, pigs and chickens just don't wake up one morning? The shocking aspect is not the video, it is that so many people failed to imagine how their meat is "produced".
Gary Paudler
I am glad that I only buy free range or local eggs; paying a little more per dozen is worth it! We don't eat a lot of eggs in our house but I don't want millions of chicks being ground up like that so I can eat some eggs (or anything else).
Martin, I hear what you're saying but even I have to admit that the herbivore diet is one I chose for myself, not one that nature has chosen for me. Humans are absolutely designed to eat meat and there's nothing inherently wrong with that for as long as your conscience allows you to be okay with your decision. There are many levels of suffering and we as a species feel remorse, guilt, and sadness when it comes to death. Murder is a natural part of the food chain, that we are a part of. But it has also taken human emotion and compassion to ritualize slaughter, thank the animal for giving its life, and coming to terms with the fact that we kill to eat. But that's all changed with slaughter houses and CAFOs. Out of sight, out of mind. Animals are machines, a commodity, and a lucrative business.
Some people here don't care how the animal is treated as long as they get their steak. Others want a "humane" option, while those of us in the minority just opt out of the institution of eating meat all together. These are decisions each individual must come to on their own and be okay with their decisions. We all exercise a level of cognitive dissonance to live in this world because the world we live in today is complicated beyond what nature intended for us. The fact that we can have a protein option that is not animal derived, just shows how complicated the world is. I don't think the answer is don't eat meat, but maybe it's a realization of what you eat, where you fit in the natural world, and what you are prepared to face in yourself about your diet.
I often think about what would prompt me to eat meat again and it's not taste, it's not a marketing label to ease my conscience. I probably would if I raised the animal and slaughtered it myself. If I got to be part of the natural food system again, one where I must face an animal and be prepared to kill it for my own sustenance. But this isn't the world we live in. We live in the chick grinder world, the corn fed cow world, the packaged piece of meat world that never has a face and we don't bother to thank for letting us go on another day. Some of us can live with it, some of us will never be able to.
The only thing I am going to say I bet all you vegetarians who do it to not kill animals are all hypocrites.
Can you vegetarians honestly say that your vegtables dont kill animals due to pesticides, that all your vegetables are grown from your own garden using no pesticides that kkill animals? That you walk to get your seeds so that you gas fumes dont kill things like birds?
You dont use any manure for your vegtables?
Even asa vegan you will still kill animals. There is no getting around it.
graciela,
I disagree that humans were 'designed' to do anything. There is no design and I think too many people use that word. Creatures eat what they can, there is no 'natural' or 'design.'
Humans have in the past consumed and are currently eating animal flesh. Does this make it natural or designed? If you think it humans were designed, who designed it? God? Nature?
If you follow Christian teachings, what did Adam and Eve consume in Eden? And/or if you agree with evolution, there is no such thing as 'design.'
I don't think everyone's missing the point. Yes, ideally the whole world would turn vegetarian/vegan, but that's not going to happen anytime soon.
It does matter how these animals are dying because the death will not stop. It might as well be as painless as possible.
I'm not saying that it's okay to kill as long as it's humane, I'm just saying it's not okay to disregard the means used to kill them because we don't want them to die in the first place.
I'm responding to to comments:
1. "Fight bigger battles": when you are getting ready to fight one of those bigger battles, call me. I'll be there if possible. I find that it is possible to do more than one thing.
2. Vegans and vegetarians are responsible for the deaths of some animals too. Yes they are -but a whole lot fewer of them. It interests me how few of the above comments address the environmental consequences of eating meat and eggs, considering the purpose of this site. There is no question that vegans live a far better existence in relation to the environment than do omnivores - even if they don't drive hybrids!
Correction, humans are not designed to eat meat. We cannot hunt and catch prey without tools or machines. All these false reasons, "we have canines, we need the protein," are all just fantasies at defending what we all know in our hearts as wrong (for some deeper inside.)
You put a baby in a crib with an apple and a rabbit. If it eats the rabbit and plays with the apple, I’ll buy you a new car. ~Harvey Diamond
Look animal slaughter in the eye and then decide if you can eat it. Here is another example:
http://www.laverabestia.org/play.php?vid=969
I guess I am responder number 65!
Interesting ... I looked at other stories on Treehugger to compare the number of responses. Noone seems to care about eco-cities, the Amazon or even that a little girl is working as a trash collector.
But everyone seems to care about the one thing that effects them- their diet!
It seems to me that all of the responders defending their plant based diet and compassion to animals are actually doing something to help our planet.
What are the rest of us going to do?
Andy, I agree...
Of all the problems in the world, chick grinding should be low on the list...however, food consciousness, in my opinion is a good place to start thinking globally, acting locally, and practicing eco-friendly behaviors. Because eating is a required action, unlike... driving, or flying, or any of the numerous things humans do that can affect the Earth, it's a good place to begin Environmental awareness.
Someone made a comment about how this is standard industrial procedure, as required to feed our growing world. I think that's the problem. The effect on the chickens may be similar to the way you kill it on your farm, but the fact that it's not a farmer who raised it that's carefully doing the killing, but a hired worker on a big machine. As our industry grows and grows there are more and more disconnects to where, as it was mentioned, people don't realize where there food comes from, how it's raised, how it's killed, and how it's processed to be eaten, and I think THAT's the issue.
"we know the vegans disagree, but many humans will remain omnivorous"
Given that this is an environmental website, it should be well understood that we can only continue with these farming practices for so long before there is no choice and we all (or nearly all) must go vegan. We simply haven't got the available land or the tolerance for air and water pollution that these factory farms require.
Grow up. Get real. Get honest. Get vegan.
Animal matter is a necessary part of a person's diet. Vitamin B12 is found only in animal matter and is necessary for a properly functioning nervous system and brain. Plant matter containing Vitamin B12 is insoluble to the body and appears in minute qualities, which is why vegans need to take B12 supplements. The human body evolved over 100,000 years ago to receive B12 from natural sources, and it was animal matter.
I'm not saying going vegan is wrong (I used to be one and enjoyed it), I'm saying that you can't avoid the fact that meat is a necessary part of the diet.
Sure, veganism may be better for the environment in regards to water use and feed consumption. But consider where your food is coming from. If your tofu is coming from soybeans grown in a deforested region of the Amazon in Brazil (which would also require fossil fuels to transport here to the US), then it's not doing much. You can still grow your own soybeans, but where are you going to grow your own B12 supplements?
If you're concerned about animal welfare, raise the animal yourself or buy locally from a farmer who you know raises and slaughters humanely.
I do not understand why chicken farmers and egg producers cannot figure out a way to utilize the male chicks for chicken that goes to market. The destruction of animals in this way is barbaric. I gave up meat and eggs a long time ago, because I cannot and will not support these types of cruel practices. This is NOT rocket science... Wake up world, we HAVE to do better than this. Collaboration amongst these industries has to occur--for the benefit of animals, humans, and the planet.
"The fact that man knows right from wrong proves his intellectual superiority to the other creatures; but the fact that he can do wrong proves his moral inferiority to any creatures that cannot." ~ Mark Twain, What Is Man, 1906
at least you should stop, think and watch:
http://www.ted.com/talks/mike_rowe_celebrates_d...>
Mark:
Please get your facts straight.
Vitamin B12 is from a microorganism, which is where all animals get their B12.
Further, if B12 is so prevalent in animal matter, as you suggest, why are so many food items fortified with it, as well as multivitamins, which are not geared towards vegetarians?
Animal matter, as you suggest, is by no means 'necessary.'
Second, the majority of the soybeans which are grown in South America and which assist in the deforestation of the forests there, are grown to feed animals, which the flesh is then is shipped to 1st world countries for consumption. If you were current on tofu (in the USA), most is made from soybeans grown in the USA.
Thank you "Ununderstood" for your comments and I do agree with your points.
Just to clarify what I meant ... I wanted to point out how selfish some of the comments are, only thinking of themselves. (The Amazon does not effect me so why should I care attitude.)
I have read some of the comments and I can see that sooner or later we will have to make dietary changes. After seeing that video my vote is sooner!
Also I did not realize how much attention this has received on television, newspapers and the net. I think it's important that people see this.
I have not been a vegetarian but after this I am going to try it out. It's not a big sacrifice to make.
Anyway, those chicks are so cute and that is not right what they are doing.
B12 comes from bacteria and is found in feces. If you want to rely on the B12 argument against veganism, then it's an argument for eating feces, not an argument for eating flesh.
Get real. Get honest. Get vegan.
Uh, yea "go vegan".....
Sorry, it's not just about profits. Farmers at the Farmer's Market make more per egg or bird or whatever than the big corporations do. The reason the big corporations don't name every bird and make sure it gets cooed at for at least 10 minutes a day is that the economy doesn't support fancy-pants expensive foodstuffs. The reason you vegans can afford the expensive food is that there are a lot of people who do infrastructure work for cheap, because they can get meat and eggs for cheap. So look around you. every person working for low pay to provide services and products you use is supporting your vegan lifestyle by not being vegan
This is the foundation of economics people. time = money. sure everyone could grow their own veggies at minimal cost but it would cost a lot of time, and they would make less money. Funny how people use "industry" like it's a dirty word. Be happy you live in an industrialized country, and not one where malnutrition and disease are the norm. Because that's what HAPPENS when you don't have to spend 5 hours a day CODDLING YOUR FOOD just to be able to eat. You can DO THINGS like make enough money to pay for a DOCTOR when your kids get sick, or pay for gas to go to Burning Man or whatever it is you like to do with your money.
"But farmers make a living off of growing food! surely everyone else could grow enough food to feed themselves" Yea, and you know you call a place where everyone has to grow their own food? "The Dark Ages". Modernization is the process by which more and more people can be spared from the one essential task for any society: food production. If we go back to pre-industrial methods of production, more people have to spend more time producing food, and that means fewer doctors/engineers/scientists etc.
I'm not saying that there's nothing that can be improved in the methods of food production in today's industry, but please don't go around saying "American corporations enjoy cruelty" because it's just not true. Even that video, which tried to appear objective, wasn't. It said that hundreds of thousands of male chicks were ground up, to make you flinch. And then it goes on to single out what, 3? 4? chicks that happened to go through the wash! Aside from the killing of the male chicks (which happens anyways, nobody wants roosters, no matter what 'alternative' programs are in place, there's just too many and they are too useless), factories have a lower per-egg death rate than farms do. Think about it, they HAVE TO. So whining that "omg a few chicks were drowned" is pretty pointless when you consider how much more efficient (and efficient = fewer useless deaths) factory methods are. Note how the video is pretty explicit about numbers when they are big and shocking, but surprisingly vague about others. "many chicks" are caught in the sorter, etc. And of course, the video is very careful not to mention what the total number of chicks processed per day is. If I were really cynical, I'd say it's probably because the proportion of male birds is so small compared to the total. Did you notice how few chicks the 'sexer' was throwing into the bin? Hmmm, interesting....
So when you sit down to that nice veggie burger, think about the fact that the only reason you can afford it is that the people who were involved in its production were able to afford cheap eggs that were produced by grinding up baby chicks. :)
Thanks Treehugger, for posting this story. It's horrible. It's the truth. Our entire culture now is based on the giant industrial animal processing plants, which incorporate incredible suffering both for the animals, but also for the people that work in the plants. Regardless of whether we stop eating eggs, chickens and dairy products, we need this massive cruelty to stop. The question is, how?
Aleks Clark:
It is about profits. You can't compare large factories to small ones, or large companies to small ones. All things being equal, the larger companies will make less per product than a small one, that's simple economics. It's why large companies so easily out compete small ones. Large companies can sell at a lower margin to, yet make so much more money.
It's not about 'coddling' your food, it's about not viewing other creatures as commodities, as products, not unlike so many people have in the past as well as currently view other people as commodities or as products.
Further on the topic of males to female chickens, what is that ratio? 50% each, 25% each? Either way, that's a lot of male chickens, so I don't even know what you're referring to by "lower per-egg death rate than farms do."
Buying "certified humane" eggs is not a guarantee that the chickens that laid them came from humane hatcheries. I did some research this weekend and learned that most egg producers, certified humane or not, buy their chicks from hatcheries that may engage in these practices. But there is something we can do! The executive director of Humane Farm Animal Care suggests writing to the Secretary of Agriculture and asking for the USDA to invest in research on sexing embryos.
I wrote a detailed post this morning about my discussion with her and what we can do here:
http://www.fakeplasticfish.com/2009/09/male-chicks-macerated-for-our-eggs-but.html
Beth
Vegetarians/Vegans: I completely agree with many of your concerns regarding animal welfare. The fact of the matter is, in order for you to eat, something has to die. Flowers, plants, trees. Those are all living things too. Just be careful how you make your arguments.
Mike,
My concern is sentience, not necessarily whether something is alive.
While many people seem to focus on the animal welfare aspect (let's make sure they die nicely), I'm interested in avoiding the mentality of viewing animals as commodities or products. For those people who do view them as such, I submit that it is no different that viewing another human race or gender as a commodity, a product, or an inferior class/object.
Jason: Thank you for the civil response, and the answer I was looking for. In fact, it's something I'm a bit torn over myself as I do believe sentience makes a difference. However, there is a naturally occurring food chain that most people do live by. I don't see animals as a commodity, and I don't think they should be. They should simply be the way most people get a good source of protein as part of a naturally occurring food chain. Now I myself do think we as a species are eating too much meat, and we should show respect and kindness to the animals sacrificing themselves to feed us, and reducing our meat consumption would be beneficial all around, but cutting it out completely? As of right now, I don't think that's a good idea.
"Have you ever seen a cat play with a small animal? Ever seen a bird being gutted by a hawk while it was still alive?
Nature is far more cruel than this. Get over it there are bigger battles to fight."
How many cats kill small animals... every day? No comparison here for the numbers. Buy local, cage-free, organic, then enjoy your meal, or even better don't eat animals at all. That's all that is being asked. How hard is that?
As for bigger battles to fight, who says you can only fight one at a time? I care about the whole picture, like most people who give a damn, and I do what I can every day to make a difference. Shame people like me are the minority. No wonder the world keeps going to a path of self destruction with ignorance reigning supreme.
Mike,
Well, I typed out a rather long and detailed response several days ago, but unfortunately it did not get through.
I focused on detailing why 'natural' and 'food chain' are human constructs used to view the world and nothing more. They are not rules used to justify our actions. In fact they should not be used.
Second is that there are plenty of appropriate non-animal sources which have protein (there really is no plant source which does not have protein, the only issue is the quantity and ratio of amino acids, which makes up protein) and animal flesh is not necessarily better than any plant source. For the most part, I think animals are just easier. More care and time are required with plants.
I can't come up with a single reason why animals should be used, or as you said, a 'good idea.' Why do you say that?
Perhaps the question here should be "How much am I willing to pay to feel better about eating animals?" Industrial agriculture's economies of scale give Americans a cheap and plentiful supply of (low quality) food. Are you willing to devote 20% of your budget to food?
One thing I don't think people realize: It's in a farmer's best interests to keep their animals safe, healthy, well fed and stress free as feasible. Let me explain:
Farmers operate at VERY thin margins and always have a bigger competitor making more at a lower cost around the corner. Every overstressed animal that dies or gets sick is a net profit loss. The health and welfare of every animal is a concern because healthy animals are ready faster and put on weight more efficiently. Every animal that dies is a few hundred down the drain. Every dose of medicine, every vet bill adds up fast. Sick animals lose weeks at a time of feed efficiency, which is bad news when over half the cost of producing a pig is its feed. Every calorie an animal burns walking about is more feed, which means more farmland, more stress on the environment. Free range animals are more exposed to wild animals, disease, parasites, ect. More disease, more inputs, more cost, more losses. And finally, stressed animals make low quality meat. It's in the farmer's best interest to take care of their animals to the best of their ability.
Sure, some CAFO practices look pretty cruel. Take farrowing crates. (picture if you're unaware of the practice http://www.ukagriculture.com/multimedia/mm_imag...) Farrowing crates lock mothers down and give space to their babies to help keep them from rolling over on their offspring and crushing them to death. Some pig breeds have good mothering instincts bred in, some will plop down on half their young and suffocate them. Which is more inhumane, a cage or a mother suffocating half her offspring? Every pig matters to the bottom line, so you get crates.
You might think that farmers could raise their selling price to offset these costs, but this is not how commodity agriculture works. As a farmer, you take whatever price the market is offering you instead of setting your own. If what it cost you to produce a pig is more than what you can sell it for, you take a loss that year and hope you've saved enough from previous years, or hope you'll make it up next year. If you don't, you stand a high chance of losing your business and being shunned by all your farmer friends as someone who couldn't cut it.
I challenge some of you to take on a very high risk, low margin business and see where you don't try to lower your bottom line and make compromises to feed your family.
You just might end up grinding inefficient male chickens.
If that thought doesn't appeal to you, reduce your meat consumption, opt out of industrial/commercial agriculture and/or go for local/home grown.
If you want to know more about how your meat is produced, you have a couple options. Option one is visit a farmer's market, support your local farmers, learn about them and their practices. The opacity of a modern grocery store will not allow this. The added income of direct sales will help them differentiate their products and meet your "cruelty free" demands. (Really though, as I explained, it's usually against the interest of the farmer to harm/abuse their animals.)
Your second option is raise your own. Buy a couple chicks, feed them out, keep them as pets that give you a present every morning. Raise some goats. Oh, and slaughter them yourself too. Learn about their life cycles and psychology.
And a third: hunt some overpopulated game, like deer. If you have qualms about killing the animal yourself, I really don't feel you should be eating it. Added bonuses: you reduce the stress on the rest of the forest animals reliant on mast crops, you know your meat wasn't factory farmed and lived a free range life, it's leaner and healthier, fairly cheap (a gun, ammo, hunter safety class, and meat processing/freezer costs).
I disagree. I hear this quite often, and it's simply not true. Perhaps a little more on small farms, but the majority of meat comes from large scale operations. On that scale, 'healthy, well fed and stress free' do not enter into making money as fast and as much as possible. The only important thing is that there is enough money being made, not whether the animals are healthy, well fed nor stress free.